Crouching through doorways

Discussions
#1

We’ve had a minor but persistent debate on the server for a while now (both on 1.12 on 1.15) about doorways being constructed in such a way that players have to crouch in order to get through them. Some players seem to like this feature as a way of indicating that the doorway is low, whilst others find it irritating whilst exploring builds. I’ve decided that a vote is the best way to solve this issue.

Please vote with reactions on the #builder-announcements message.

Red: Yes - they should be allowed wherever the builder feels they’re necessary

Green: Yes - but only in hobbit builds to preserve a sense of scale

Blue: No - blanket ban

If you’d like to justify your opinions on this one way or another, please post below.

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#2

Using doors at lower heights to provide interesting locations and variability in locations is just another tool. A vote for “a builder feels they’re necessary” isn’t a vote for it being everywhere, just adding it as a tool we can use. Considering crypts in Gondor, cellars in Bree and Rohan, the homes of hobbits, and the tight areas of coming cities, it’s just a nice tool. We use this mod for options, knowing we have to tailor it where we need it, this is just an extension of that same philosophy.

We will invariably spend time fighting which areas should and shouldn’t use them, but that is no different than the arguments for 3m vs 2m tall doors in other structures.

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#3

I completely agree with it being a tool to use. I’m just hesitant to vote ‘builders can use where they want’ because then situations like in the Combe concepts can happen, where they’re used in half the doorways. As long as that doesn’t happen it’s fine for me.

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#4

This view doesn’t fix anything because then we return to fighting over individual usage of it. The only way this can be solved is by either accepting that builders can use it wherever they want to, or banning it in certain/all cases.

#5

I don’t think these are the only 2 options. Project leads can also decide where they can be used, or they can make sure it’s not used too extensively in their own projects by removing some of them. Of course if it’s been established that it won’t be banned, project leaders shouldn’t decide to ban them in their projects anyway, because that would indeed bring up the same situation. Just limit usage is basically what I’m saying.

#6

I think a compromise is needed, they have to be allowed at the builder discretion because I agree there is a use for them(Caves, Hobbit entry-ways, doors for certain livestock) But I also think that it needs to be up to the project leader if they’re accepted or not. I don’t want them used for player entry points into buildings in Breelands, period. But if Eag wants them in MT, more power to him. Just know that they can create frustrating situations for new players, and even though its an easy explanation–I hate seeing it as a factor. I can’t say my view on that is universally valid because there are lots of methods of getting around that are “easier” on new players like no-clip and flying. And you don’t innately know to do those things without instruction.

Edit: There are plenty of games out there with core mechanics for exploration that are far more complicated than Minecraft and even Minecraft comes with a crouch by default. I should expect players know how to do these things already and we can create so many interesting things such as ruins that are collapsed and only accessible via crouch. So the more I get further along the more I change my mind on banning it. This poll seems to exist now to get a player consensus on using them but I think what I and a few other people needed was a proper discussion to vent out frustration/arguments caused by it.

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#7

I think whatever is decided here, it needs to be server wide, not project by project or its going to seem jank. While it could work area by area, if you have different projects within an area i.e Gondor, with some having crouching areas and others not it would be a bit strange

#8

The more we do Gondorian stuff the more it’ll become standardised anyway. So I don’t see it becoming a big issue.

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#9

One thing that is worth pointing out is that there are some realism considerations that should be kept in mind for door heights. In general, most medieval houses that were not particularly wealthy had to be very sparing with openings in their houses, whether for windows or doors.

  • Large doors required more heating in the home because the opening created draft and allowed more cold air to enter. Remember that houses were not insulated, and every little thing that adds more cold air will require more time and resources to mitigate.
  • Larger doors generally require more advanced carpentry to accommodate the heavier solid wood (think of the hinges, joints, studding etc that need to be made to support this).
  • Structurally, the larger an opening in a house is the more careful your weight distribution and bracing needs to be to prevent having an unstable house. For this reason most medieval houses avoided large openings to ensure a more secure and solid structure.
  • The resources needed for a larger door (when I say large, I mean over 2 meters or 2 - 2.25 blocks) is generally just going to be a lot more expensive and it should be taken into account if a certain house has the means, or desire, to attain that for very little benefit.

Crouching through doorways seems a bit of a non-issue in my honest opinion, considering that also happened IRL as well. Rather than facing the above-mentioned issues, a house owner would much rather have simply crouched under the door lintel to get in and out. This is effectively (and actually rather fortunately) represented in Minecraft by shifting, so the immersion you experience is actually accurate to how it should be.

Now, for a place like Minas Tirith where the average Numenorean (and correct me if I’m wrong here) is 6’4" tall, maybe sub-2 block entrances are not needed, or desired due to the urban resources at their disposal and opportunity for more advanced and refined masonry. That being said I will not opt out, even in MT of all places, of using smaller doors considering the benefits and applicability is just overwhelming. Definitely not everywhere as can be obviously observed, but in some poorer places they absolutely make sense.

In Bree-land, based on the realism that is desired (as all projects are), I think it’s only fair that sub-2 block entrances in some areas are present (even though if we’re honest it would actually be practically every door, but I realize some concessions need to be made). There are of course some lore considerations with older Arnorian buildings having more affluent masonry, but unless a building has been standing (WRT its arches and openings) since those times, which I find difficult to believe because buildings change incredibly much over time, there is no reason to have anything like we have in MT - size-wise.

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