Agree with using a tag rather than rank tbh. Don’t need more Ranks, this isn’t MCME.
If someone wants to exclusively build terrain, just have them apply for Builder with a terrain tag. Sounds like the perms will be the same, they’ll just apply for different projects?
Admin
Mod
Builder +
Builder △
Builder
Guest
And if someone earns Builder △ they can earn the + tag/perms when they prove proficiency like any other builder. No need to distinct them with separate ranks. And doubt they’d give a shit if someone asks them to build a house and they have to type out two whole letters to say “No”. I do it all the time.
Also, the entire point of the photographer perm is so you can load more chunks right? I’d scrap/replace the photographer tag with △ and have it inherit that perm. That way the tag actually has an exclusive perm, and serves a better use as those who focus on terrain need to load more chunks than average builders.
This is fine for build projects which require some terrain work. However I think terrain-only projects should be exclusive to Terraformers.
Here’s the issue with this. Say you have a normal Builder who wants to work on a terrain project. They apply for the △ tag and get it. Now you have a person who’s demonstrated proficiency with both building and terraforming.
How would you distinguish between them and someone who applied as a Guest to become a terraformer? Would you have a [B] tag and a △ tag? It just becomes needlessly complex at that point.
Having a separate rank makes the division clearer imo. Just saying “hurr it’s like mcme” isn’t an opinion. Their issue is extra bureaucracy and non-building ranks, which this is not.
I agree with Fornad, a terraforming rank won’t be a issue, but it would mean that we are making a clear distinction between building and terraforming, which means people with the builder rank dose not have the permission to do terrain work and vice versa.
But for us who is in the middle and likes to do both, there should be the possibility to wear both ranks, but maybe with a preference. I prefer building, but I have done a ton of nature stuff in the past.
[+][terraformer][b] - For terraformers who has applyed for builder permissions.
[+][builder][t] - For builders who has applyed for terraformer permissions.
[+][terraformer] - Has only permission to work on terraforming related stuff.
[+][builder] - Has only permission to work on building related stuff.
[terraformer] - Has only permission to work on terraforming related stuff.
[builder] - Has only permission to work on building related stuff.
It is quite simple, but it would be more to regulate. The question is more; do we really think this is an issue and to introduce the rank is the necessary means to fix this? I don’t think I’ve seen an issue where builders with no experience with terrain suddenly decides to do some and fails really bad at it. I guess the rank is more for the people who only prefer terrain work. But there is very few that only like to do terrain work, but there are plenty who likes to build and do terrain stuff. By introducing the rank it will mostly effect our current builders and make a line between terraforming and building, and then we need to define where that line is.
I have nothing to add in the discussion concerning rank etc. but I would like to add my thoughts on the jobs Terraformers can do without WE and Voxel.
I think that the list of jobs mostly contains very small detail terraining and doesn’t really show the abilities someone has with general terraining. So I think that the list has to be expanded with a couple larger projects (like the small caves) or perhaps Terraformers can go into apprenticeship (not meaning in the rank) with Terraformer+ who can teach them how to do larger areas, maybe even give them some trials with WE and Voxel. This way they can learn how to use these tools properly and and show they can use them before getting Terraformer+.
I see where you’re coming from Kem but I think this is too complex. All you need is:
Builder+
[B]Terraformer+
Terraformer+
Builder
[B]Terraformer
Terraformer
This is the problem though, because if you spend most of your time building and only do some terrain stuff, you’ll never be very good at terrain.
If builders want to apply for terraforming perms then they should get the Terraformer rank. It’s a speciality which should take up most of their time on the server. The aim is to create terrain experts that whee doesn’t have to supervise all the time, and the only way to get people like that is through time and experience.
This confuses me. Let’s say me for instance, right now I am working on a lot of terrain/nature stuff at Eryn Vorn, do I need the terraformer rank for this, or can I keep working on terrain as a builder? Or where is the line? Is the terrain rank for people who totally reshapes mountains like whe or for nature stuff in general?
The appropriate rank for you would be [B]Terraformer+. The main aim of this system is to create a group of people who have experience with terrain and whose main purpose on the server is to create and improve terrain.
You could also contribute to the Terraformer document system we’re creating.
I would reverse this though, have Builder [T] etc instead of the other way around, to show they can do terrain stuff as well, the community would know if that person is more focused on terrain or building, and I think that people that have applied for terraformer would stay focused on terraforming anyway, even if they got the builder tag as well, and vice versa, I get your point with wanting terrain experts, so you don’t want builders to half focus on terrain, but focus on either terrain or building, not both, but I think builders wouldn’t apply for hard terrain jobs if they’re not capable of doing it, and if they did, we could just reject their project. Hope this makes sense
Who would take on responsibility of training these new terraformers though? I know that whee has started to train a few select people, but he is far often far to busy to start checking everyone who wants to be a terraformers work ect.
So the system would select for people who could do their own research and have the ability to do stuff largely without supervision.
I think the Overseers would be able to handle these applications as well, with some input from whee if required. As long as we can see that the person has done a bit of research on the ‘scenes’ they’ve created, and has placed the appropriate plant/rock types as a result, it doesn’t take an expert on that particular biome to approve it.
Again, when it comes to the area details project for a new Terraformer, it doesn’t really take a terrain expert to tell if they’ve done a thorough job or not.
By the time they reach Terraformer+, they will have proven two things:
They can do their own research
They’re dedicated to doing large-scale projects on their own
Terraformers will also have access to a unified set of documents written by whee and others which will help them.
I’ve thought more about this. This is the worst possible solution in my opinion. People would just collect the [T] an accessory but feel no obligation to do terrain - because their title would still be ‘Builder’. There is a lot of power in having your specific job title next to your name.
Ultimately, doing terrain requires more research and more work than being an average builder. Terraformers would have to be dedicated to this role.
Ah that makes sense, you might want to change a bit on how you advertise this role then, no offence to the people you tagged on discord, but a couple of them I can almost guarantee would not be capable of doing their own research, and I have a strong feeling their idea of terraforming is far, far different from ours.
I think in reality, this is actually a harder rank to obtain than builder, and should really be advertised as such, not as an easier cop out rank if you cant build houses for shit.
Maybe, yes, but there should still be a way for builders that are capable of doing major terrain stuff to do it, since I don’t think there will be many terraformers, not enough to do everything at least.
I think you’re kind of missing the point of the rank as a whole. If a builder wants to do a major terrain project like you mentioned, that’s what the rank would fulfill. No active project has so much supposed terrain work for the project leaders to do that couldn’t be done by a Terraformer who would likely have a better understanding of what to do anyway. Yeah I mean builders still would have voxel/WE if they need to paste a tree or two that’s fine, but they shouldn’t (and wouldn’t) do anything significant.
Dunland is the prime example here because the project leaders haven’t (understandably) been able to do the terrain work, meaning it’s fallen to Whe. So even if there is terrain in a ‘standard’ project to be done A) 99% of people don’t really want to and B) they usually have no idea of what to do anyway. Terraformers in this instance would be the specialists who are more readily able to do that kind of work because they have an interest and are properly trained.
Having it the ‘Builder + [T]’ way around the way you’re saying blurs the roles of the rank to the point where it’d be far easier to just not have a role at all and pick interested builders to help whe. Either do it properly or not at all IMO.
To some extent yes, but the discussion has modified the original proposal. We’ll discuss it at the meeting on Saturday and then work towards implementing it.