Dale: ON HOLD

guide
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#1

Player name(s): Glov (legacy leader)

Player rank: Builder+

Location name: Dale

Lore: "It was known as a merry town that traded, mainly in food-supplies, for the skills and craft-pieces of the Dwarves. Dale’s toy market was the wonder of the North and the town was renowned for its bells.

The death of Smaug and the Battle of Five Armies occurred in 2941. Three years after the battle, Dale was rebuilt by Bard the Bowman, who had killed the dragon and was the descendant of Girion. Dale soon again enjoyed prosperity: Bard founded the Kingdom of Dale and it gathered men from the Long Lake, the South, and the West. Lake-town was rebuilt and grew wealthy from traffic with Dale. During the reign of King Brand, the grandson of Bard the Bowman, Dale served as the capital for the lands he ruled, which extended far south and east of Lake-town."

There is no other “canonical lore” relevant to the actual construction of the town. But for my purposes I will be referencing a number of Michael Martinez’s articles. Below are a few relating to Dale specifically.
*This section will be updated later

Project Guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oCSVkUbGkNgC49Eo6vNA2A9h1qBZ74NL04tWy65DvGU/edit?usp=sharing

Professions list: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Vabq942Y8fLnyfA-7Yt_hM_TtL9ATKeirDUPo8pUiiQ/edit?usp=sharing

Reference Images:

View post on imgur.com

Please use this album as inspiration whenever you’re building!

You are required to read the “Project Guide” before you may build in Dale.


#3

Looking good so far guys. For those struggling to add detail to their roofs, i’d really like to avoid just adding a mess of slabs to add interest. Try adding some Dormers, ivy, balconies, etc.

You also may have seen a few houses with these kind of mini towers on the corners, similar to this, feel free to add something similar, but don’t overuse them. The Same goes for building materials. If you see your neighbor is using a certain palette, try to do something a bit different so all the houses don’t end up looking the same.


#5

[quote=The Fellowship of the Ring - Many Meetings] Glóin began then to talk of the works of his people, telling Frodo about their great labours in Dale and under the Mountain. ‘We have done well,’ he said. `But in metalwork we cannot rival our fathers, many of whose. secrets are lost.
We make good armour and keen swords, but we cannot again make mail or blade to match those that were made before the dragon came. Only in mining and building have we surpassed the old days. You should see the waterways of Dale, Frodo, and the fountains, and the pools!
You should see the stone-paved roads of many colours! And the halls and cavernous streets under the earth with arches carved like trees; and the terraces and towers upon the Mountain’s sides!
Then you would see that we have not been idle.’ [/quote]
Basically what this says is that the Dwarves had done many great deeds in Dale. But I do not really see this on our map. The houses have very little stone (mostly tudor) and even the castle has quite little stone. The city wall is a small curtain wall where you cannot stand on and the city gate is a ruined tower with a big door. Now some people say that Erebor is for the place for war and that might be so, but here is a quote from the appendices: [quote=Appendice A - Durin’s Folk] ‘I grieved at the fall of Thorin,’ said Gandalf; 'and now we hear that Dáin
has fallen, fighting in Dale again, even while we fought here. I should call
that a heavy loss, if it was not a wonder rather that in his great age he could
still wield his axe as mightily as they say that he did, standing over the body
of King Brand before the Gate of Erebor until the darkness fell.
‘Yet things might have gone far otherwise and far worse. When you think of
the great Battle of the Pelennor, do not forget the battles in Dale and the
valour of Durin’s Folk. Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage
swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell. There might be no Queen in Gondor. We
might now hope to return from the victory here only to ruin and ash. But that
has been averted - because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of
spring in Bree. A chance-meeting, as we say in Middle-earth.’[/quote] So yeah, this quite proves that the battles weren’t fought defensively in Erebor -a bit cowardly- but that it was actually fought in Dale. So Dale would definitely have their own strong defences. So please Glov, consider redoing the outerwall and the main gate, and maybe indicate some of the masonry. Sorry for the long post and my lore autism. Btw other than all I’ve said above, I really like Dale.


#6

I agree with you that there aren’t enough Dwarven influences in the architecture.

But the defences argument is pretty weak. All that was said is that there were battles in Dale - that the dwarves went out and fought the Easterlings in the valley. It says nothing about the city itself having great defences. And why would they build such defences? They’d simply evacuate the population and get them inside the mountain if an army was approaching.


#7

I’ll let others chime in on this, and i’ll still consider what you said. But prior to the war of the ring they would have had little need for defenses. After the Battle of five armies orc populations were so low that most of Wilderland became rather peaceful. The only real threat would be from wainraiders in the east. But in order to reach Dale they would have to cross the Carnen. As it’s implied that Dale expanded it’s reach East into the angle between Celduin and Carnen, we are planning on having a town or two, as well as villages, and castles along both rivers. The crossings across Carnen would be the most well protected. And if any conflict came, it would come first to the strongholds along the Carnen, which would act as a barrier to invasions from the East.

Also what Fornad said.

As for Dwarven influences in Architecture. Ehhhhhhhh… I’m not sure how people seem to think that would work. Guan tried something once with “Dwarven foundations” and imo it looked ridiculous. I’m sure Dwarven Masons would have helped in rebuilding Dale but I very much doubt their “Architecture” would have taken precedence. The Dwarves were busy enough restoring Erebor anyways.


#9

Important Update!
Good News Bad News Good News.
So, in light of the merge I’ve had time to play around with new blocks and Dale’s style. Unfortunately things are going to change a good deal so far as scale/block use/ etc. But I think it will end up with things looking nicer. And I hope to test this new style out in Section 2, and if it works out well, continue it on from there.

However, that does mean Section 1 will need some big changes. All houses will need edits most likely, and some maybe removed entirely. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
So, for the moment, if you have an unfinished house in Section 1, I would stop work on it for the moment. I’d like to put Section 1 on the backburner and move forward with Section 2, then 3 and 4. We will return to Section 1 last and by then I’ll know exactly how to rework it.

If this makes anyone feel like they’ve wasted their time building in Section 1 then i’m sorry. It’s a process! And i’d rather make these changes now rather than get to the end and in hindsight wish i’d changed things earlier.

TL;DR: Section 1 is on hold, Section 2 is open.
But, before you build in Section 2, check out the Example buildings in the area by the Eastern gate.

Recommended Materials have also been added to houses to ensure that there’s a good variety of house types. Feel free to tweak these, but try to stick to them if you can.


#10

A suggestion. Do your best to work with your neighbors regarding roof shapes. One of the things that didn’t turn out too well in Section 1 (imo) is a mess of roofs overlapping. Try to make them fit into each other and avoid too complicated outlines. A single, main, roof with dormers and a balcony looks just as nice as one with a lot of wings shooting off it.

I’d like to see more roof shapes similar to the orange and purple example houses. Especially along the River as I’d like to see something like this get going.

Update!
Great work so far everyone, I really like how things are turning out!
Hopefully I’ll have Section 3 outlined and opened within the next few days. I know that Section 2 was small and all the plots are claimed now. But if you’re waiting for a plot, just wait a few days and I’ll have some open!

Until then there’s still some misc. tasks you all can do. I Marked some market stalls along the streets in red wool with signs. Feel free to do any of these! Wheellee did a very nice stall next to the guard tower and the example houses. I’d like to see stalls look a bit more like that than what we’re used to building just to add some variety to Dale.


#11

Update:
Hey Vsauce, Michael here! Section 3 is open!
I haven’t added material suggestions to the majority of this Section. And depending on how things turn out I may continue not to do that.
Ideally i’d like ratio of 1/3 Tudor to 2/3 Stucco/brick/wood/etc. Be mindful of your neighbors material use and try to adjust yours appropriately.

I’ll be working on the roads and other details myself as we go, but please (especially those with houses on the Main road) do some detailing around your house while you work. How your house is framed is equally, if not more, important than how the house itself looks. Take inspiration from Section 2 as you do this.

Have fun!

Update 2:
I’ve added some buildings outside of the walls on the East side of the river. Mainly Barns and hunter’s cabins. Feel free to work on these buildings as well. Try to keep them to the style that’s set to the two already completed just outside the gate. 1 story, mainly log cabins, as well as mud/tudor is acceptable; with wood shingle roofs.

There are also 2 postern gates. Somebody is welcome to make these look a bit nicer. they would just be simple 2 wide doors in the wall with a wood gate.


#12

I agree with you, but that being said, maybe the gatehouse shouldn’t be ruined? I don’t think the walls need defensive improvements, but the ruined part doesn’t match the descriptions, which evocate a rich, resurrected and busy city. I think that if they go for a full rebuilding of the city, they would rebuild the gatehouse as well, and as the city is wealthy and not that much time has passed since its recolonization, nor has it faced any military assault, it should have been properly maintened.


#13

I thought there was a sign that said “temporarily” if i’m not mistaken :stuck_out_tongue:


#14

It will most likely get redone and be intact.


#15

#16

idea for the gate


#17

Another gate


#18

Update:
Section 4 is Open!

Many of the buildings in Section 4 are labeled as “under construction”. The idea is that this is the newest section of Dale. So they are clear cutting trees and building houses.

Refer to the example “under construction” house in Section 2 for inspiration. You can try something a bit different, but keep it realistic.
There is also a Woodcutter’s cabin or two as well as a Lumber camp.

I’m open to more suggestions on how to improve this Section, I enjoy the idea you all suggested of showing Dale expanding.


#19

Should the hunter cabin have a bed, or is it just a workplace ?


#20

Had an idea here. How about having a Venitian “water street” somewhere?
Basically a canal with buildings on both sides, and the only acces to the houses being the canal itself rather than regular streets. This would make a really nice market area i think, with some market boats maybe?
Kinda like this except for no land street at all.


#21

Wouldn’t Amsterdam / Bruges be even better inspirations considering the location / influences of Dale?


#22

Yes. Save Venice for Pelargir.

And tbh, if Canals weren’t mentioned in Lore, I probably wouldn’t have included them at all. So I probably won’t make them any more extensive than as is.


#23

Is Dale going to have a barracks and armoury? Presumably in the castle right?